Understanding the Different Types of Influencers to Partner With with Ashley Zeckman
The types of influencers that brands partner with go beyond those celebrity or mega influencers that have, for example, published books or are keynote speakers at large conferences. There are several categories of influencers that brands should look to when building their campaigns.
To dive deeper into this, I sat down with Ashley Zeckman who is an 8-10 year B2B influencer marketing pro. Ashley is currently the Vice President of Strategy and Customer Success for North America at Onalytica, an influencer marketing platform.
Learn about how Ashley thinks about these different types of influencers, which aren’t the typical tiers such as nano, micro, macro, and celebrities.
After listening to the episode, make sure you connect with Ashley:
And, if you enjoy learning about influencer marketing and dark social, please consider subscribing to the Influencer Impact newsletter and joining our community. Until next time!
What follows is an AI-generated transcript. The transcript likely contains errors and is not a substitute for listening to the podcast.
Justin Levy 0:01
Hi, this is Justin Levy And we're back with another episode of Influencer Impact. Today I am joined by my good friend Ashley Zachman. She's currently a Vice President at Onalytica and she'll be able to tell you a little more about them. But she's had eight to 10 years or so experience in influencer marketing before it's even what we know it to be today. So welcome, Ashley.
Ashley Zeckman 0:30
Thanks for having me. Justin. I'm excited to be here.
Justin Levy 0:35
Dive right in. So one of the things that you know gets talked about often is B2C influencer marketing versus B2C influencer marketing, B2C, something that we've seen for years, it started with kind of mommy bloggers and where you think that might be good, bad, indifferent. That's really where it started. But now, we've seen this kind of this change to B2B influencer marketing. We've talked about this in the past, how it feels new or so many people are coming out and saying that 2023 is the year of influencer marketing or 2022. But you've been doing this for a long time. So how is it different? So how do B2B and B2C influencer marketing differ over the time that you've been involved in it?
Ashley Zeckman 1:33
Yeah, I think at the core b2b influencer marketing requires that the people that you're partnering with them internal or external influencers or experts have true expertise. And that's again, that's not to not be to see but a lot of it is, we put this product in your hand, you promote it, we sell more. Right? And that's not really what we're doing with b2b influencer marketing, I think, you know, that expertise can come at varying levels, obviously, right? You work with some people who are maybe newer to the industry, who don't have as much depth as others.
And you work with different types of influencers, or, you know, we could you and I could talk about this for 10 hours, I'm sure nonstop. But I think it's, you know, it's simply not enough just to be a creator, or to be popular amongst your audience. I think that people have to trust you, the information you provide, and the brands that you're partnering with, in order to be really effective.
The other thing, I think, to be very specific to b2b influencer marketing is the relationship aspect. So it's not as pay to play, things have changed, obviously, over the past few years, where we are investing more in paying b2b influencers, but that's because the quality and the quantity of things that they're doing with us has changed. But I'd say that relationship is, is huge and very, very important to success.
And I mean, of course, I have to give a shout-out to Charlotte and Lou on our influencer relations team that are just killing it with this right, like really spending that time to build meaningful relationships with the influencers we work with. And to be frank, Justin, that's how we became friends is that years and years and years ago, I was like, Hey, Justin, would you like to contribute to this thing? Oh, how's it going? Oh, let's meet in person. What are you interested in? So I think, yeah, that relationship piece is critical to success as well.
Justin Levy 3:23
You build as a brand, you build these relationships, or you're, you're interested in influencer marketing, if you're on the B2B side, you read in the data that's coming out, or you've been following it as a trend for the past couple of years. What are the benefits that brands should consider besides just relationship building, which is very important? And I don't want to underscore that, but what are some of the other benefits that brands should consider when when they start to get into B2B influencer marketing?
Ashley Zeckman 4:03
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it varies based on what it is you're trying to achieve. But I guess at a high level, I'd say, we all know, I feel like we've been stating this stat for years, but it just keeps getting worse and worse. That trusted marketing has fallen, right?
So you need to partner with people that are trusted by your target audience. You need to be able to scale your content, especially with budgets, no matter the size of your organization being caught right now. How can you create more consistent high-quality content with less resources? Right, if you went from a team of five to a team of two, how can you continue to serve your audience? Right, so that scalability is important?
I think that like I said, Trust credibility, and then looking at it from a demand gen perspective as well. What are the things that by partnering with external experts you can do to convince your audience that maybe you as a marketing team couldn't do on your own? Are they going to have more faith in it? Is it going to be more interesting to them, kind of what can you do to draw more people in, that you might not otherwise get in front of, to keep moving them through the funnel?
Justin Levy 5:10
What are a few ways that you would recommend a brand that's just starting to dip their toe into influencer marketing, and maybe they hear this, they read a report somewhere. And they want to get started, they might not know how to build a relationship or, you know, the first place to start, or they only know the big names or something like that. How would you recommend that they actually get involved? Like, what is a low to no-cost program? Or how do they go from an initial relationship to a longer-term relationship, things of that nature?
Ashley Zeckman 5:55
Yeah, I think that's one of the myths about influencer marketing is that you have to have a large dedicated influencer team, you have to have a large budget for it. But it's, it's really just a matter of testing to see what works, right. So one of the things that, you know, at its very basic level, it could be if you're on the content, team, sourcing predictions from influencers for the upcoming year. That's something that's a great relationship builder.
You could also build list of, you know, these are the top influencers to follow in insert industry here. It's something that we've been doing for a long time, but people love seeing their name on lists. And there are always people looking for those lists. So if you're trying to generate traffic to your website, that's a great way to do it. Or if you're on the social team, right?
Just finding ways to curate influencer content, start engaging influencers in conversation, you know, sourcing some short quotes from them, it's, again, there's a million different forms that this content could take. But it doesn't mean that you necessarily have to have a fully baked-out strategy.
I think, once you've tested it and have proof of concept, then the strategy is critical for scaling it, when you're just starting out, it can be things that don't take a substantial amount of time. But the biggest thing, I think, is, is reaching out to the influencers in a way that they see a mutual benefit. And working together. It isn't just saying, Hey, we're doing this thing, fill out this form K thing by right? You want to engage them as part of this, you want them to feel like they're building something alongside you.
Justin Levy 7:25
That's so underrated. Or one of the things that brands don't get right now. It's one of the quickest things that they screw up. And I see it twofold.
One is a short-term transactional relationship versus a longer-term relationship, as well as one way, okay, this is what we want from you, we've either paid you or we've asked you to do something for us, we gave you something, okay, we named you to a list, great. Go share it for us, that sort of thing, as opposed to a two-way relationship where without even asking necessarily, you will also make them the superstar. You leverage your brand voice and maybe people on your teams voice if they have large audiences as well, and you share content from them that is relevant to your brand. So I know we're aligned on this. But why do you think it's critical to build long-term relationships versus you know, transactional relationships? What are those benefits?
Ashley Zeckman 8:50
Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is once the money dries up, so does the relationship. Right? So you may have invested, let's say, 25 grand over the course of a year with an influencer, but it was all transactional. Once you cut off that paycheck, they what? What motivation? Do they have to stick around? Right? What motivation? Do they have to continue to advocate for your brand and to continue to partner with you? And when people are asking them about top, you know, teams product services, is your name going to be top of mind? Or is it going to be a team that has really gotten to know them got to understand what's important to them, and how to support them and their efforts.
So I think that it's, I don't know, it's that transactional piece. I just I find so often that we treat influencers like affiliate marketers, and there's like, is one of my biggest pet peeves and that it is about creating something together. It's not saying we created this asset, can you go share it for us, right? And again, there are moments where, where that sort of engagement can work based on your relationship but whatnot, but just have thinking the influencer marketing is just have influencers push out content you've created, whether it's aligned with their target audience or not they collaborated on it or not. It's just one of the things that I had to say one thing keeps me up at night about b2b influencer marketing. That's what I would choose.
Justin Levy 10:14
So don't do that. Yes, we get back some might be a big don't do or do the opposite of that. But what would you say are other things that brands should do number one, versus not do number two when it comes to? And I guess this is probably twofold, or maybe fourfold? Because it should do versus not do. But when it comes to their overall strategy, in maybe even at the next level at the tactical level of a campaign?
Ashley Zeckman 10:52
Yeah, I think, especially if you're starting out, but even throughout your influencer marketing, maturity, find ways to integrate influencers into activities you already have planned. Right?
So I think the launch that your team did when you did your rebrand was brilliant, right? Because it wasn't like you were just focusing on one piece of content with influencers to try to show proof of concept. You had a whole series of things planned and you integrated influencers into it. Right, so and that it creates a much lower lift, I think for teams sometimes is figuring out how does this work into our overall campaign or ongoing content strategy? And finding the points where it makes sense to include influencers?
So that could be you know, do you have an original piece of research coming out, have an influencer, write the foreword, have a few people share thoughts throughout, do a LinkedIn live about it, sharing some of the results, have them Yes, help promote it, you know, maybe have influencers speak at events that you have coming up, it's, I think, the more we can integrate with planned activities, the easier it is to show success versus trying to just make them stand alone things at the beginning. And then I'm obviously a big fan of the always-on approach to influencer marketing, because I feel that, you know, campaigns can give you a really big spike.
But if you're doing them infrequently, and you're not maintaining those relationships, as soon as that campaign is over, your results, start to, you know, really dip down them versus always on where it's like you have this kind of steady you know, mix of collaboration and mentions of your brand and share voice that you're getting from it as well as you know, insert 1000 other metrics here, you have something that's always you know, as it's called always on, but then you have those campaigns to give you that extra lift as you need them throughout the year. So a big fan of those.
And I think being, we should be very, very mindful of the people that we are hitching our wagons to, in the same way that influencers are, most influencers are fairly particular about who they want to partner with, we need to be making sure that there's a shared point of view, that we're vetting people fully, especially with, you know, recent things happening on social networks where there's not a lot of trust, it's really, really important to find out who those people are, what they care about what makes them tick, and making sure that you are giving good representation across your community of people that they relate to. And want to hear from.
Justin Levy 13:24
I think that's excellent advice. And one of the things that I think brands are especially brands new to influencer marketing see, is either A, the celebrities that the bigger brands can kind of play with. And that actually sometimes sours them on influencer marketing, because you know, insert name of the celebrity that they don't want to associate with their brand. Exactly, or the bigger name, influencers saying B2B marketing, for example, most of us know who they are. They're the best-selling authors and the ones you always see keynote events and things of that nature. But who were other influencers that if you were recommending them to a brand, you know, sure, you might build a work with these mega influencers, or if you're a big brand, maybe even go to a celebrity. But it doesn't always have to be that right. So who are those other people that or other types of people, I guess that you would recommend?
Ashley Zeckman 14:45
Yeah, so there's every company has a different set of name for those influencer types, right. But ultimately, I'd say you want to mix regardless of your if you're an enterprise brand or startup or an SMB. You want to work with different type Types of influencers because you get different value exchange with each of them.
So yes, you have those bigger names, those professional influencers, let's say, and you know, they're recognizable, maybe they are, they are authors. And let's say you, you wanna work with a couple of them, right? Because they, they bring some credibility, and they're well known. But then you also have your up-and-comers who are people who are sort of on that track to becoming a professional influencer, by working with them earlier on when they have a smaller, but very engaged audience, you're going to start building advocacy with them, so that by the time they hit the big time, they're already integrated with your brand. And then also, you know, niche experts that have that really deep expertise that sometimes we as marketers, despite our best efforts, cannot write content, based on who our target audience is truly right. If you're a marketer trying to write for engineers or scientists, it can be hard, right?
So by finding those people that have and trust me, I've tried to do it, I'm not saying I've done it well tried to, by finding those other people that you can rely on their expertise, it's, they might not have the biggest social networks, but who cares, they're helping you create some of the best content. And then you have your social amplifiers, which again, have some expertise, but really, you're looking for them to cast that wider net. And then internal experts, obviously, like finding ways to surround the people within your organization by other credible thought leaders is great for building their individual reputation and credibility as well as that of your brand. And then lastly, but certainly not least, customers and prospects as well. So who are the prospects that you want to get in front of why not include them as an expert? People love that, right? They love feeling like they have something to offer, and then other customers, help your target audience see themselves in the content. They're like, Oh, that person in that similar role as me is having the same issue like, okay, that's someone I'm looking forward to company XYZ that brought us together, right? This is something I'm interested in learning more about. So even within our platform, we have all of these different types of experts, tagged and delegated to make it kind of easier to find, but I think it's, it's not always just going after one type. It's including as many as makes sense for your objective and the type of content you're trying to create. I think I said that all in one breath. I don't know how that happened. It was a lot. I'm sorry.
Justin Levy 17:20
Impressive to say that all. I know, I couldn't wear we're as we record this, it's mid-November. As scary as that is. It's two weeks from today, we get our Christmas tree at my house and will already be past Thanksgiving. So one of the things I know I'm being reached out for and I'm sure you are as well, our 2023 predictions for B2B influencer marketing. I have some thoughts and a few published thoughts on it. But I'd love to hear yours first.
Ashley Zeckman 17:58
Well, I hope I didn't accidentally read something of yours and then steal your predictions. But I have to I have two that are top of mind for me.
The first one is that, you know, over especially over the past couple of years, we've really seen the influence our compensation rates rise, right. And my team did a compensation report. We're actually refreshing one right now. And we'll be coming out with one, I think in Q1.
But as that request for additional compensation has increased. There hasn't been I think enough on brands asking for like, okay, but like, what do I get out of this? Or what do we what is the exchange in this partnership? So I think there's going to be more and more brands that are saying, Okay, you can charge me X Y, Zed, but what is the impact?
Like what do sample results from other programs you've worked on look like, because I think B2B influencers haven't really had to prove that as much in the past, and people have just been willing to work with some of those bigger names, which To be frank, sometimes they're not people that garner the best results.
So I think there's going to be that, you know, almost like a portfolio, that influencers are going to be asked for more and more, which is something that we were working on. On our side with My Onalytica, which is part of our platform, which is kind of putting those results and fees and things kind of sort of front and center so brands know, kind of what the expectation is terms of payment and result. So that's a big one. I just feel like it's been kind of loosey-goosey in and what the exchange of value is to be frank.
Justin Levy 19:33
It has been that there is no baseline, right? It's this person you could have and it's not all about follower count. But for debate, see if you could have 2000 followers but charge $25,000 You could have 400,000 followers and charge $500 right like there is no true baseline and it's up to every influencer to get what they can get. Yep, good, bad, indifferent. That's why, you know, we'll talk about measurement in a minute.
But whenever I measure our campaigns, if it's a paid campaign or has a paid element, at measurement, always cost per engagement for me. And it's the only metric I know of to normalize all of that. Because that person with 400,000 followers, but that charged $500 may have more engagement than that other person that charged $25,000. They may not that the 25 Grand sticker might scare you. But if they drove more engagement, more leads and all that it wasn't a bad ROI for the business. Right.
So I definitely think like for me, CPE is cpe is one of those, because there's not a standardized rate card. And I don't know if there will be to your point, I think that increasingly, you'll see those portfolio asks and professional influencers, for the most part, have them, here's my reach, here's programs I've worked on, here's logos that I've worked with, you know, example campaigns, I'll do X, Y, and Z, you know, type packages, and then you can go customize based on your wants or needs. It's as if you're buying a piece of software from a brand, right, and you have all these options, and you can build a custom program. Now, one of the areas for me, and I've said this a lot lately is I think video is by far something that brands need to double down on, and influencers need to become comfortable with it. And the reason for that is multifocal.
But one we know that social networks are moving towards video in prioritizing them in their algorithms, right Instagram with Instagram Reels show more have come straight out and said they'll show more reels over static TikTok obviously the explosion of TikTok and some people have found that LinkedIn is favoring video right now. But additionally, Content Marketing Institute and to MarketingProfs partnered on their annual survey of B2B marketers. And they found that 78% of this sample of 1500, marketers said that they were going to invest in video this upcoming year in 2023. Not only is that a lot, but it was a 9% increase in one year.
However, the other part of that is in CMIs, follow-up study, they said that brands came out and said that 59% of them, which was the highest part of this study of this particular question, said that they would do better with a video strategy. So you have them saying that they're going to spend more money, but they could do better with a video strategy. Want to wear that? And of course, that means customer videos and all sorts of other content.
Obviously, it's not a question directly at influencer marketing, per se. But if you read between that brands should look to do more content, with more video content with their influencers, maybe it's you do have a group of say five influencers and you do a video campaign of sorts off of it, or you do something like we've done at demand base. And we've done these kinds of mini-series or limited-time series where one influencer has their own show for on DBTV, and they filmed six or eight or 12 You know, episodes, but it's all video content. But then we have two or three or four of those shows running at any given time. So my biggest I have others but my biggest prediction across the board is video for the upcoming year. And I think that brands that don't do it are will miss the boat with influencer marketing.
Ashley Zeckman 24:45
Yeah, and I think my second prediction was tied very much into that but a little bit different. But I think what's interesting about what you're saying about video is that from my perspective, the type of video matters the setting the channel, like what success trick criteria looks like, especially again, as you look at, we've been conditioned to expect episodic content, right? And short, episodic content, and how, like you said, you have a series, right where one influencer might do eight or nine videos. And that's something someone can bench, right and can sit down in and do that. So it's like, I think the type matters and the setting, like I said, my other prediction, interestingly enough, was also about video. But it was more about kind of, I think B2B brands are going to start exploring, again, borrowing influence from emerging channels or channels where they don't have a presence.
So let's say TikTok, for example, not every company is going to be able to start running a TikTok, like your team has been right, like your group of team members have done an awesome job of creating really fun content. I think I've included it in two or three presentations now. And it's but not every brand is ready for that not every brand can do that. So I think it's you know, perhaps your customers are on those channels, and your influencers are on those channels, but you are not. Right. So does that mean that you need to go build a TikTok channel? Not necessarily. But that doesn't mean that you can't have a presence, right? By partnering with people who do have a good network, they so agree on video. And I think, again, we'll we'll see B2B brands start testing channels that might not have been traditionally part of their mix.
Justin Levy 26:25
So to your point about TikTok and you know, should a brand be on some of these channels and what have you, the brands that step out of the box a little bit, and sure, they might not have a presence on tick tock, if we're using them to beat up on kind of right now. But they do step out of their comfort zone, or their industry's comfort zone and partner with TikTok, or with a TikTok influencer, they’ll almost see first mover advantage in of in some of these channels, right? Because they're trying to come up with new and creative ways. Everyone is, you know, doing Instagram right now, for the most part, are you doing it right or wrong? Or what happened? That's up for a different debate. But you can do some cool stuff on tick tock, with creators there. And I've seen some b2b brands that have done really unusual content, not bad, but content, you wouldn't have found anywhere from that b2b brand, or competitors. But they worked with a TikTok creator, and it's super engaged in it. It was something out of left field. And I definitely think we need to see more of that. And video, whether some people like it or not, we have a mutual friend who does not like it is moving to vertical. It's a vertical format. That's how our phones are designed. That is how these networks are leaning in on video. So I think brands have to also become comfortable with that.
Ashley Zeckman 28:30
Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting, too, because it's almost like you can follow all of the different videos can be platform agnostic, right? So let's say it goes live on TikTok first, but then I see just as many TikToks on Instagram, and then they make their way to Facebook, not as many on LinkedIn. But there are some brands that even publish those videos on their, on their LinkedIn accounts, right. So it's like video and your website, right? It can travel across platforms in a way that maybe some other types of content can't. Which means it can be repurposed and reach a new audience. So maybe it's that to the original source doesn't matter as much, but it's the format. Right, and whether it's engaging or not, whether people think it's funny, or, you know, find it relatable.
Justin Levy 29:19
Totally, I think, you know, it's funny, people have their debates about safe tick tock, right, because of who owns them and, you know, there's a lot there kind of geopolitical stuff that we don't have to get into but an area that I am bullish on besides video overall, and I don't think enough brands are taking advantage of it is YouTube shorts. And it's, you know, right now they can only be they have to be under a minute overall. So you do have to get creative, even when Whether you have to chop up your video or just make sure you record a 60-second video only, but people forget that if one, you have to have a YouTube presence, so let's just assume that you already have a decent brand YouTube presence. But that is the number two search engine in the world. And it's the number one video search engine in the world yet they go back and there's some competition with TikTok over last year and whatnot. But if you're not looking to take advantage of new options within these networks, you may miss out. So right now YouTube shorts is new. And you can repurpose that video, you could create a 62nd video that you posted Tik Tok, or, you know, say 52nd takedown repurpose that maybe with a tweak or two to YouTube shorts, not hard to do. But when another brand catches on, you'll already have 50 100 or whatever, videos up there. So you will leapfrog your competition your industry.
Ashley Zeckman 31:10
A great 100%
Justin Levy 31:14
As we wind down, and I know the answer, the initial answer to this is going to be it depends. But I'm still asking you anyways. What are key metrics when you determine the success of your program?
Ashley Zeckman 31:31
Great question, Justin. And, you know, I think I'd have to say it really depends. I mean, it does depend on what you're trying to achieve. Right? And the reason I say that is because based on your objective, the types of influencers you work with the types of tactics that you deploy, it all needs to be aligned under that I think, I'm sure voice for the moment is still a metric that a lot of companies are looking at. And you know, they want to ensure that they're getting more of the marketplace than their competitors, which, again, is especially if you're working with social teams, I think, important. But ultimately, you know, I think it's just are you shifting anything in the marketplace? Are you actually impacting the results for your marketing team, and that could mean increasing visitors to your website, that could mean time spent on the website that could mean conversions, right? It could mean, how many more people are you getting in front of in getting, you know, to engage with your content than you were previously? But also, you know, how are you encouraging SMEs and executives within your team, to build continue to build that up for you? So I think that there will be more emphasis in the near future placed on sort of those executive thought leadership programs in combination with influencer programs. Because the results you can get are, you know, 1020 fold when you have others within your company advocating. But I think the question that many still have is, can you actually drive demand? Can you drive leads with influencer marketing? And the answer is yes. But it depends, you're not going to drive leads by certain forms of content that are designed to drive awareness and drive. Sure voice right, you just have to be very clear and what it is you want to achieve, and then kind of reverse engineer. Okay, what types of influencers do we work with? What types of tactics are we deploying?
And I know that was like a very non-answer. But I think it just
Justin Levy 33:35
depends. I know, it always depends. But there are a variety of metrics. And I agree, no matter what, when I measure, say, the campaign's that I lead, I will always work in some of those consistent metrics, right? So you can take share voice engagement, reach all those standard-ish metrics when it comes to social and that I always look at stuff back to the website, always. Because if you're doing your job, it's driving back to the website, because you don't just want someone to say, hi, Brent, you know, fill in name a brand. They're really cool, or you should sign up for this webinar, maybe. But, you know, you can look at that. Back on the website. I recently ran a campaign where besides these other metrics, the reach and engagement all those metrics I looked and over maybe a 45 or 60, day period, two of these pieces of content that were developed were within the top five or 10 pages on the entire site. That's a meaningful metric to be able to prove out that campaign or the success of that program, because most brands have hundreds of pages on their website. So I agree, you know, obviously, you filter in leads, lead gen, then you know, these other activities, but there are some of these basics like the typical social metrics. And then I do think visits to what website or in those associated kind of analytics are always impactful. Because even if it's a brand awareness play, you should be able to see our people coming back to the brand.
Ashley Zeckman 35:32
Right. And the easiest way to like get nitty gritty and the details is providing your influencers with tracked links for measurement, right, so you can say, we worked with these five people, and actually, of all the sources, these two influencers drove 90% of the traffic and guess what 80% of that traffic was new visitors. And here was how they engage with the content. And that's, you know, if you don't have GA, or it's difficult to set up tracking links, just give them a bitly it's free, you can at least track something, you can see how many times people have clicked on it from the individuals. And I think people are still just not doing enough of that to get a kind of fuller scope of the funnel. To see like, yeah, maybe it was a big social brand awareness play. But did we drive traffic to the website? What did how did it perform which influencers drove the most and it's just it's such an easy step that I think it's often overlooked that has, it can really help inform your decision-making.
Justin Levy 36:32
This has all been great. I think we went past way longer than I thought we would. But whenever we get together, we tend to talk for very long time. Where can people find you as we wrap up here?
Ashley Zeckman 36:47
Um, LinkedIn me, always. I enjoy connecting with people on LinkedIn. I've also started a new book club, virtual book club. The first book we're reading is in Handley, second edition of everybody writes, We kick off next Thursday, it's on LinkedIn can find it. And, you know, visit Analytica to just I guess, learn a little bit more about our b2b influencer marketing platform, our consultancy and how we might be able to help.
Justin Levy 37:18
You’re amazing thank you so much for joining today.
Ashley Zeckman 37:22
Thank you, Justin. Appreciate you always
